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Short PvP fights and Looting on Death

The idea of the game is to encourage PvP correct? in PvP you die a lot, no matter how good you are, you're going to die. So, why are we discouraging PvP through the current death and loot penalties?

Currently, when you die, all of your items drop. Equipped, hot slots, stuff in inventory, everything. Your killer, or any random passerby can loot it. Thus ending your reign of so called terror.

There's also no penalty for dying other than loosing all of your stuff. No temporary debuff, no experience loss, nothing.

Here's a quick example of another game's implementation of PVP:
Asheron's Call circa 1999 to 2017.
  • All death's came with a vitae penalty. It was a 5% debuff (for each death) until the player could gain enough experience to 'work off' the debuff. This maxed out at 40%. That meant that all skills were handicapped by a percentage.
  • On death a random set of items dropped. (eventually found to be based on item value. Players got around this by putting mana stones, high value items in their inventory to increase the drop rate of these rather than the stuff they would rather not loose)
  • on death, the player had to retrieve their body within 1hr of death.

Now, I've killed and been killed many times in rend. The battles tend to be short. Either my opponents are all dead within a few short minutes, or we are. Thus ending the battle because no one on the opposition has any of their gear left. It's rare to enter a scenario where the enemy leaves your stuff alone.

Also, moving the portals right next to each of the faction bases, is a dumb idea to encourage PvP. The battles end just as quickly which doesn't solve the problem. This also encourages t1 area camping by the opposition and forces many players to stick around home base while guarding farmers etc. Thus, the rest of the map doesn't get used. I digress.

Now, here's what I suggest, which is open to discussion:
  1. On death, a small but random number of items drop, giving the player a chance to hop back in the fight quickly, or
  2. (because this is closer to what's currently implemented), a small random number of items dropped are selectable by the player's killer; and
  3. Only that player's killer may loot the selectable items of the body.
  4. Only the revived player or faction members may loot the entire body.

First, the idea behind this helps keep the fights going for as long as possible. This not only puts players back in the fight much faster, but also forces players around a central goal, body looting and guarding. Maybe the goal is to take down the players of the faction that has the stronger tier armour. So you hive together to take them down and try and grab all of their stuff. Killing them multiple times of course.

The PK'd killer still has to retrieve their body but now a new dynamic happens. The other players on that dead players team need to work together to guard the body from being looted because, who knows what's in there. It could be that bow, or that piece of armour that they don't want to loose, or maybe it's all of their ammo.

Maybe it's a push for that outpost and the opposition is 10v5, but the 5 are so well fortified that it's going to take multiple attempts and strong pushes to pull through. If the 10 die in the first wave, well, the fight is over unless there’s a better way to get back in the fight more quickly.

Now, when it comes to penalty on death? there really is none. Death should come with some kind of temporary debuff. The more you die, the more sever this debuff gets. This could be a damage debuff or vitals debuff, or skills, etc. It could be time based or merit based (working it off somehow). I would like to let you explore this as I have no idea what might work best in this dynamic.

In my example of Asheron's call, we sometimes had PvP battles go on for hours with corpses littering the landscape all to achieve singular purposes. By the end of it, we all had a great time with plenty of missing items and debuff's to go around. Currently, PvP battles in rend, last just a few short moments. I'd like to see battles rage on for hours. After all, we are all fighting for our right to enter Valhalla aren't we?
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Comments

  • I don't think my PoV on the issue will be much of a surprise to anybody who's seen many of my posts. :)

    Disable corpse looting, period. I'd still leave the items being dropped on death, but I do actually like the concept of only dropping portions of it. Instead, give the killer research sparks dependent on their victim carried, with bonus sparks given for any items that are carried that you might not be able to craft. So, if you enemy faction has crossbows that you don't have researched, you get bonus sparks for that. It might be a good idea to actually provide sparks that are specific to researching the unresearched crossbows, to prevent abuse of specific leaving something unresearched in order to get constant bonus sparks.

    I feel this would provide some similar effects to what you've mentioned in your post. Trying to get people to their corpse so they can get back into the action. It really makes an armory more useful, as you'd be able to get temporary gear to survive long enough to potentially get to your corpse, and still participate in the meantime. It provides a catch-up mechanic in bonus research for things you don't have.

    I do still like your idea, and the simple reality is that the principles in survival PvP games are so contradictory to anything that is going to encourage PvP. They need changed. When WoW was launched, they realized that to get people more involved in PvP they had to reduce the death penalty. In WoW, they nearly eliminated it. You get sent back to your spirit healer and just have to corpse run. I'm in favor of a bit more penalty than that, but you can't make a game that is PvP focused while punching people squarely in the face for participating in PvP. People need more reason for participating and less penalty for failing.
  • This would not work with the stags as they are , simply guarding an outpost you want to disable the player take armour weapon ammo , what your suggesting the enemy could storm back on a stag re equip and kill the victor in seconds. The penalty for dying is losing gear. Too many ppl try to dumb down games to the point they are not survival games anymore. If your not skilled to wear the shiny stuff don't wear it.
  • It also a fact that the more expensive you make the act of pvping . the less people want to pvp.

    This is why high pvp in games like eve online ultimately devolved into two massive groups of players yelling at eachother in chat while being too afraid to actually commit to a fight.

    And gearing up in rend is not cheap. getting the correct gear rolls is expensive and luck based. I once lost my item find gear and it took me 3 days to get something similar back.


    You are right agent the penalty for dying is losing gear . which is why no one wants to pvp unless they know they are going to win. For a game based on pvp . not having people willing to pvp .. is kind of a game killer.

    losing sparks is cool , losing spirits is cool , hell losing inventory is cool. but if i lose the gear i need to actually fight back... then i am not going to be fighting back now am i?
  • FrumpylumpsFrumpylumps ✭✭
    edited September 2018

    And gearing up in rend is not cheap. getting the correct gear rolls is expensive and luck based. I once lost my item find gear and it took me 3 days to get something similar back.


    You are right agent the penalty for dying is losing gear . which is why no one wants to pvp unless they know they are going to win. For a game based on pvp . not having people willing to pvp .. is kind of a game killer.

    losing sparks is cool , losing spirits is cool , hell losing inventory is cool. but if i lose the gear i need to actually fight back... then i am not going to be fighting back now am i?

    Only for the dumbest of babies like yourself. The gear in this game is easier to obtain than in any full loot pvp game i've ever played and usually others supply it for you. EVE isn't the rule when it comes to being averse to combat in a full loot pvp game because that game has its own unique elements in it that make people averse to its skill-devoid combat,. Full loot pvp is highly desirable by many people and there are good reasons why we have it, so please stop claiming that you speak for everyone as you so often foolishly do. Did you ever think that maybe this game isn't for you?


    Fuck off back to wow or suck it up and stop complaining about CORE game mechanics.
  • agent wrote: »
    This would not work with the stags as they are , simply guarding an outpost you want to disable the player take armour weapon ammo , what your suggesting the enemy could storm back on a stag re equip and kill the victor in seconds. The penalty for dying is losing gear. Too many ppl try to dumb down games to the point they are not survival games anymore. If your not skilled to wear the shiny stuff don't wear it.

    Battles are lost for many reasons, not just because the player isn't 'skilled' enough to wear the gear. If course n00b players need to get better. How are they going to get better if they die once and quit? Do you remember how many times you died in (insert game name here) before you're KD ratio was something reasonable? How about all of those players that fail and still come back to a game like Fortnite? Why? because the death penalty is not set to 'hardcore' mode. If you want a conquest pvp mode sure, but not for the general population, and certainly not for new gamers to the genre, let alone new to Rend.
  • In the end... I pretty throughly disagree with agent. I can understand that mindset, but I just can't agree with it. It's the mindset that has resulted in the PvP in every survival game I've ever played being, at best, bizarre, and at worst completely ignored. "Hardcore survival PvP" is a concept predicated on ignoring everything the gaming industry has learned about loss and it's relation to PvP in games. Don't get me wrong, I'm good with hardcore servers being a thing. There are players who want it and will be perfectly happy with it, but I'd much prefer to flip the paradigm on it's head and have the standard game mode not involve gear loss on death, and have a 'hardcore' option available for it. I can honestly say that if there's any single, sweeping change to Rend that I think could has the potential to make Rend *the* survival PvP game... it's going to be reducing or eliminating gear loss on death.
  • Another thought for a Hardcore mode is that when you die, you're dead. Start over like in Diablo. At that point, it's not just gear loss it's permadeath. But then, reward those players that make it all the way through with as few character wipes as possible. You won't be able to reroll to another faction, but it will definitely set the faction back by dying. Just a thought I've been mulling around for the conquest/hardcore guys.

    But I do agree with @BlappoSpawn. However, I wouldn't go full on PvE, this game is all about player combat. I also like the idea of adding meaningful mods to weapons. This might give more cross-pollination to something like alchemy; or tie in construction with armor crafting for additional armor etc.
  • @BlappoSpawn Btw, your post brings up a kind of fascinating point of view. I think some people would be insulted by it, but I'm actually rather humored. It functionally implies an ecosystem where PvE content is made for PvE players to consume (acting the same as herbivores within a traditional ecosystem), so they can be cultivated for the PvP players (acting as carnivores) to kill them and if it all works right everybody gets what they want.
  • GerickGerick
    edited September 2018
    Speaking for myself

    I think raw materials, inventory items, should be what you lose. Maybe only half the ammo you're carrying. 1 weapon or armor piece should be lost -- however, looter gets to pick which they take. (like everquest pvp looting, you'd look 1 main item and then all the rest in the "Worn" inventory would become unlootable.)

    People don't pvp and they sit in base because they're afraid of their only armor set getting taken. Without your gear in this game, it's almost like being back to level 1.

    So I'd prefer partial looting to what we have now.
  • Broopanda wrote: »
    Another thought for a Hardcore mode is that when you die, you're dead. Start over like in Diablo. At that point, it's not just gear loss it's permadeath. But then, reward those players that make it all the way through with as few character wipes as possible. You won't be able to reroll to another faction, but it will definitely set the faction back by dying. Just a thought I've been mulling around for the conquest/hardcore guys.

    But I do agree with @BlappoSpawn. However, I wouldn't go full on PvE, this game is all about player combat. I also like the idea of adding meaningful mods to weapons. This might give more cross-pollination to something like alchemy; or tie in construction with armor crafting for additional armor etc.

    You want a really really hardcore PvP game, but how many times have you died to PvE and Latency. Permadeath in this game would be a really bad idea imo.
  • @Darinth
    Yes it is just like an ecosystem, the studies show player levels on a graph where they interact and types of content that are shown to increase populations. It is pretty much consensus that Hardcore PVP game play that is obligatory reduces numbers exponentially because players who dont care for it leave, Dropping player numbers, making PvP players have less people (IE Dead Server) Then they find new people on new server - run them off too, eventually you are left with a very small niche audience of Carnivores killing carnivores until ecosystem death.
    Cigars keep me sane
  • @BlappoSpawn can you cite any sources regarding PvP player psychology? I’m a former game designer so this topic interests me greatly.

    otherwise, I agree but from a hardcore player vs casual player perspective. Ei) if the casual players don’t feel that they can keep up, they quit. In turn, if the hardcore players are only competing with themselves, they also quit. WOW managed to balance the systems out early on in development to ensure a good mix of both.

    @Meram hardcore mode would be reserved to a few servers. And yes I agree that corpse lifetime and server stability are issues. In Asheron’s Call, the hardcore full PvP server was darktide. It was one official server out of 7 I think.

    @Gerick once a faction can make armor, it’s easy enough to have multiple sets laying around. The psychology of a player with their armor is that once they’ve picked the pieces they want, respawning after death and selecting a new set is inferior. 1. It takes way too many instances to unlock new crafting prices. 15 to 20 crafting attempts is too high for skilled. And to master is at least another 15 to 20. So, by the time the crafter masters the item then starts crafting to get the right enchantments, there’s so much garbage stored in crates that nobody uses. This is why I suggest using alchemy, construction and the other research components to apply enchantments to armor and weapons rather than R&G crafting. Which, is another topic entirely.
  • Not off the top of my head, I retain information, but i dump things like dates, names ect. lol

    WoW is heavily leaned to PvE, and even has PvE servers without obligating players to participate in PvP at all.
    They also can be seen as exception to most rules because they have the MMO population currently, MMOs must all compete with them because the biggest population driver in MMOs are the Social players, People who run the guilds and forums ect. Since WoW has the most players with tons of time invested in the game It can make mistakes and feel much less burden.

    the types of players often are refered to as killers, achievers, explorers, and socialites.
    I wont break them all down to the T, but every player has bits of these, The explorers will love the lore, and worlds, and systems in the game, the socialite will love sharing their experience with other, achievers will try to do things earn achievements, levels, win.
    Killers will focus on dominance over other players.

    Now these intermingle and i Personally feel i am the 25:25:25:25 type of player on a graph i sit at 0,0 so i can see these things very easily, The more people you can bring into early stage of MMOs with high Socialite and explorer the better. They will understand the mechanics, and explore the possibility, but their socialite side will also make them share this running forums and wikis, and clans. So they keep other players happy. They also like interacting with players so they are the least likely to be upset by Killers getting the better of them, They will see it as a new system to explore and work with others to overcome.

    If i come across the book again ill send its name.
    Cigars keep me sane
  • Dying after 1h farming in swamp is definitely demotivating... I would definitely never drop more than 50% of the backpack because that's the boring, just time lost and it makes people flee instead of fighting... (omg pvp yeah but not with my taming crystal and the 10 allidon tendons I have in my backpack => stag ++ or died and frustrated so alt f4) 

    On the other side, when you pvp 100% drop means end of the pvp session as your new naked. 0% is like poker without coins... probably 1 of our 2 equipped weapons and 1 of 6 piece of gears would be nice. You can fight back but weaker.

    My2cents...
  • Broopanda wrote: »

    @Gerick once a faction can make armor, it’s easy enough to have multiple sets laying around. The psychology of a player with their armor is that once they’ve picked the pieces they want, respawning after death and selecting a new set is inferior. 1. It takes way too many instances to unlock new crafting prices. 15 to 20 crafting attempts is too high for skilled. And to master is at least another 15 to 20. So, by the time the crafter masters the item then starts crafting to get the right enchantments, there’s so much garbage stored in crates that nobody uses. This is why I suggest using alchemy, construction and the other research components to apply enchantments to armor and weapons rather than R&G crafting. Which, is another topic entirely.

    This assumes that players will actually leave multiple sets even. Most of us who do not play with premade clans and guilds find ourselves on servers where there are 18-20 spare boots, and 18-20 spare head items, and nothing else. There are spare weapons, but they're not even made out of current tier materials, but rather, well-meaning randoms who are filling up the box while the "super serious" people keep everything in an elder's box.

    No one would be too heartbroken if pvping wasn't a complete reset to your ability to farm. If full loss is 100% one way, and no loss is 0%, we need to see the game play around with 50% and see if that improves population scores. A few patches back, dying inside your faction shield boundaries during reckoning had you lose just your carried inventory. All the regular fielders were on and we were 20/20. When they changed it (fixed the bug actually) we suddenly had people refusing to log in and we were like 12/20 so I definitely see where the gear loss severity is driving player behavior.

    Since FK is talking about "Clan" servers and having a competitive ladder with them, maybe they ought to try softening the pvp loss penalty on official servers and then use the current loot rules on the competitive ladder. This way, both types of players are satisfied and taken care of.

    Conan Exiles has 6 different official rulesets. Why can't Rend?

  • Only for the dumbest of babies like yourself. The gear in this game is easier to obtain than in any full loot pvp game i've ever played and usually others supply it for you. EVE isn't the rule when it comes to being averse to combat in a full loot pvp game because that game has its own unique elements in it that make people averse to its skill-devoid combat,. Full loot pvp is highly desirable by many people and there are good reasons why we have it, so please stop claiming that you speak for everyone as you so often foolishly do. Did you ever think that maybe this game isn't for you?


    Fuck off back to wow or suck it up and stop complaining about CORE game mechanics.


    Yeah , I am choosing to no longer respond to your posts , Maybe when you stop acting like a dip shit to everyone you talk to I will start taking you seriously again.
    OK so my PoV.


    If we nerf the full loot i think we need a heavy balance, because we need to be making new gear,
    Even without touching full loot, I would like to see armor crafting 20% cheaper, and repairing to be nerfed, So an item can only be repaired a certain number of times. I would also like to see item upgrades, Similar to empowering tools, Instead of random rolls on things, We could put purposeful upgrades onto Items,
    These could include what already exists, and i would add upgrades to increase durability, Decrease repair costs, Block chance(80% damage reduction from a blocked projectile) and many more things that some creativity could bring.

    Honestly, I don't think that is totally necessary. Crafting items you will use is already a pretty time consuming task. You could craft 50+ pairs of boots as an example and not get the rolls you were looking for. scale that up to 20 - 30 people and that is a lot of boots just to get something everyone wants.

    This was already a major hurdle to crafting before corpse looting was even taken in as a factor.

    Even as the primary crafter of an armor type, I was only able to put out 4 or 5 complete sets of what anyone would call "competitive" gear; the rest were misfires, bad enchants or bad enchant combinations.







  • OK so my PoV.

    Everyone speaks about the game in terms of PvP - they really mean combat. So lets look at combat and combat games.

    Very successful combat games in the past 5 years, CoD, Battlefront, over watch ect.

    2 Common things they all share - players have equal footing and fast paced.
    Rend is survival so already you are losing Fast paced, the matches are meant to take months.
    The second is equal footing. Currently does not exist, and that is fine by me.

    You start the Saga even, assuming you have even player counts - which you wont
    Next you begin farming and building and researching ect. the survival gameplay.
    If your faction plays less hours than the other because of schedules of a 24 server then the enemy already can pull ahead - people seem to not like playing against people with better gear than them - again not the point.
    The point comes from Combat against players begins. You have got some bows, and armor and your get ganked and lose them. Now you go back to base and there are extras laying about. This means the enemy now has 1 set advantage- this is where we start to feel imbalance. The individual player feels like they are behind because they are grabbing worse bows out of the chest, they are missing a chest piece so they go farm and in their eyes- waste time making a new chest piece just to get back out there after a death.

    This is the point where players start getting frustrated, The harder it is to come back from death the more likely it is they end their play session. Look at super meat boy, 0 time involved in restarting after death, so players are happy to throw bodies around everywhere. Then look at Dark Souls Think about when you stopped a play session, sometimes its after a victory, but sometimes its after dying and you have a few seconds to load and get back into it, after a few deaths you think maybe i should take a break ill get this guy tomorrow.

    Time it takes to come back from a death creates an 'exit point' These also come in the forms in arcade games as save point. Places where you feel you can break from the game, or you simply want to stop for the day ect.

    Having these points be Massive penalties has never been taken well by the gaming community who enjoys staring at the game over screen? The oops your dead screen?

    So while there are many people who will say 'this is a hardcore survival pvp game' Just take a look at how many of those exist.
    Next go take a look at their player base. And their base over time. Then compare it to CoD, BF, overwatch.

    They are way way lower, The hardcore pvp tends to make people feel like their time gets wasted when they die. And The players who gravitate to these games always talk about people making the game too 'casual' However these gamers Need casuals in the game, The PvP Combat games are focused around providing a power trip to its consumers. That is what people want from the game is to kill people and feel superior, But when you take away casuals they have no one to fight, but other people seeking the same thing, and as it turns out they enjoy the easy kills alot more than the hard ones.

    This kills game communities over 90% of the time, If there are not separate PvP and PvE servers in MMOs The PvP player Population Decides if the game will fail. Essentially the more they like the game the less everyone else likes the game because they are the prey.
    However the unique thing that happens is that the more PvE players like the game, The more PvP players like the game As well. More PvE players means more prey, more for them to hunt down and get that power trip.

    When working on a game with a large community with any form of MMO, even just 60 players per server, The more PvP the game gets the smaller the community gets, the more PvE the game gets the more players join the game, and community grows within reason - there are 3 types of PvE players, and each is just part of a ratio like this 20:30:40:10 It breaks down how much a player likes a certain type of gameplay. But to my point.

    Cater to the right number of players across the 3 PvE bases it will Increase your PvP base because they tend to enjoy PvP no matter what, and If you focus PvP first, the other 3 types just leave.

    The focus currently should be on the PvE type of player that uses like social part of the game, The MMO players, These are you clan masters, elders, leaders in any capacity, the people running discords and organizing people. These people can be tough to please, its all about Quality of life tools to help them run clans, But if they are happy they tend to take care of the other players needs, Making sure people are happy, and are the most active on forums, and trying to make sure Devs hear about the problems and balance, and bugs.


    If we nerf the full loot i think we need a heavy balance, because we need to be making new gear,
    Even without touching full loot, I would like to see armor crafting 20% cheaper, and repairing to be nerfed, So an item can only be repaired a certain number of times. I would also like to see item upgrades, Similar to empowering tools, Instead of random rolls on things, We could put purposeful upgrades onto Items,
    These could include what already exists, and i would add upgrades to increase durability, Decrease repair costs, Block chance(80% damage reduction from a blocked projectile) and many more things that some creativity could bring.


    So my answer and TL;DR is i think the population of the game will go up if Full looting were nerfed in some way.

    I did read this and I agree with your argument. It would be better if you somehow lost only 1/3 of your gear randomly on death. Make it easier to get back out there.

    Now on the other hand theres planning; players can learn to keep boxes and chests and whatnot stuffed with spare "get back out there gear". And honestly it doesn't benefit the other team to have 3 sets of your medium leather and 3 of your bows. What are they going to do with them all, really?

    Another thing to consider is that on death items take durability penalty. Im in favor of getting rid of repairing entirely, as people get too attached to their gear. Your stuff breaks you need to get new stuff. Players getting too into needing "just the right enchantment" should be nerfed somehow.
  • btw... if anybody was looking for what Blappo was referring to, I knew I'd heard of it previous when he mentioned killers, explorers, socializers, and achievers. They're referred to as the Bartle types and you can find all sorts of articles that cover the concepts with relative ease. :)
  • I remember this article now...

    Stewart, B (2011, September 1). Personality Playstyles a Unified Model. Retrieved from https://gamasutra.com/view/feature/134842/personality_and_play_styles_a_.php
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