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Faction elders may initiate a two-minute interface popup vote to label a faction member as an outcast. If a majority is achieved (60% of online faction members), the faction member becomes an outcast
Scruffy wrote: »
This could be a major problem. Elders are not chosen by being the best leaders the players decide on, it's based solely on faction points? Time spent in the game. As often as not, the elders are NOT good leaders, builders, or designers, they just spend more time in game grinding. Elders can now outcast people based solely on personality clashes, being a control freak or simply power-tripping/bullying. And there's nothing a player can do about it. The system is a good idea but poorly implemented and will cause more problems. If Elders are now able to kick players, there needs to be the facility for players to kick Elders or otherwise overcome bad elders. In one game, I clashed with an Elder, most players on agreed with me, but there's nothing we could do, the Elder had the perms to do whatever. I decided that it wasn't worth continuing to play in that faction and log out to delete my char and join another faction. Unfortunately, the game said I'd played too many hours, and could not delete char. I was forced to stay in the poorly led faction or find another server entirely. I would dearly have loved to change factions, just for the opportunity to deliver justice to another player.
Darinth wrote: »
That 2 v 1 is actually one of the worst-case scenarios that concerns me. A bad elder and one other player can do a lot of damage with outcasting people. Once again, however, this is a fixable situation. Having faction players be able to add their vote as they log on means that once another person or 2 logs in, they'll get their votes counted and overturn an outcasting. Stop looking at the worst-case scenario and acting like this is a reason to throw the entire system out, and start looking for ways to resolve the issues.
I agree with some of the concerns, but think that in 99% of cases it's fixable without FK even needing to directly interfere, and that metrics and/or GM review can mitigate issues as they pop up.
GuestUserNameGUN wrote: »
This will help stop all the minor trolling, stealing resources, destroying them, stuff like that. Yes it will introduce the ability for power hungry elders to ban people, but then it's easier to prove and thus easier for the devs to give out punishments. It's not a perfect fix, but it's one that will reduce their workload of dealing with hundreds of griefers a day to 5 ban-hungry elders, which is also easier to prove. Meaning the devs can then focus on bugs and other updates without an alert every 2min from a griefer.
Darinth wrote: »
@xzonerhsr It's less fan boi and more defending the system we recommended. Also, a lot less 'THE WORLD IS ENDING!!' and a lot more 'Lets wait and see what happens so we can recommend changes to a system that we expect will have problem.'
If it doesn't work, the system can be ripped out and another can be tried. But my goodness, it's barely a week into EA and they're experimenting with a new system to resolve an issue. I think the system can be made to work, you're just used to looking at terrible implementations that have no safeguards on them.
Darinth wrote: »
"Because there are no safeguards on it. Its a free for all implementation of an incredibly easily abused mechanic with an extreme detriment to the person being abused."
We... don't actually have full system details. We have a little blurb that Scapes posted about what the system does, but my base instinct is that this isn't all of the details. Even if that is how the system starts out...
"We have their current clear intention so yes we have the details."
"If you support this its likely because your part of a guild and want to be able to bully everyone on your server in to doing what you want."
Nope. No guild. I have some friends and will probably hop between servers a little bit, but certainly not enough to have any kind of controlling interest.
"Yep this is already happening without the system even in place yet just less efficiently because its harder to do"
"If you cant see how terrible of an idea this is you suffer from an inability to see where things lead."
No, I have a disagreement on where things lead.
"Yes you simply dont have foresight and are ignoring all the other platforms that have done this and killed their player base simply because you would like to pretend it couldnt happen here it would seem"
"Elder just mean guy that has a lot of time played."
This is just factually incorrect. Achieving elder status requires being one of the top 3 in the faction as far as rep. While having lots of time to play does help you farm up more rep, they're not the same thing. Elder does mean 'guy who has put in a lot of work'. Still doesn't necessarily mean they're a good leader, but it's certainly more than just most time played.
"So long ask your not anti afking generally the person with the most time played is going to have the most rep unless theyre just "doing it wrong". And as far as I've tested on my server it seems to be based on time spent in game as there is one elder that just doesnt do much rep farming but is in the game all the time (fairly certain with an anti afk program as he does not move for long periods of time). I have a hard time believing its based ONLY on rep from what I've seen. Though it would be better if it is based completely on rep rather than time."
"And typically those people are the ones looking to act like internet tough guys and are far more likely to abuse a system like this."
Now you're performing massive generalizations. Literally demonizing a group of people based on the fact they spend a lot of time playing Rend and getting Rep. I promise you there will be bad and corrupt Elders, but most of the people I've known who are elders are decent people.
"anecdotal. My experience has been the opposite. Just like stereotypes are not true for all of a group they are true for a majority which is why its a stereotype to begin with."
"There needs to be safeguards in place."
Probably, but I'm still of the opinion that even without those safeguards in place the outcast system will be an improvement on the situation. The safeguards will be further improvement though.
"Being ok without having safeguards in place is the equivalent of setting a hydrogen bomb off in your back yard because you think maybe possibly kinda sorta a little bit that itll just be a fire cracker equivalent."
"What if an elder simply doesn't like another elder does he simply bide his time till he has more friends on than the other one and outcast him?"
That'll be a problem. And this is an example of a situation where a safeguard will be necessary. I still feel you're taking worst-case scenarios and making the de-facto reality.
"I am using real life experience from past games that have used similar systems to give morons power over others they do not deserve or are qualified to use. Your inability to understand that this has been done before time and again and failed every time is whats blocking your ability to reason here I think. We need to look at worst case scenarios. This is how you prevent bad crap from happening before it happens."
"Its pure crap that wasn't though out at all."
Unlikely. It was a regular topic on the discord for a while, and there was a good bit of dissent on the best solution. Unfortunately, nobody was able to put out a better idea. I think this is the best option. It probably will need some safeguards. Some of those may already be in place when the system launches friday, we'll have to wait to see.
"If it was thought out it wouldnt be open to such blatant obvious abuse. Thats not thought out thats placating. And honestly I hope thats all it is and they never release their self destruct system"
"No one needs to wait and see the abuse thats just failure to understand basic ideas. I dont need to wait and see if a caged lion will attack a caged zebra because i have the foresight to know its gonna happen."
Once again... you have a problem with overly wide generalizations. I expect there will be some issues, but most servers I expect will see improvement when factions have a method of removing problem players.
"The issues are already clear as day. You dont implement a system of punishment when its going to impact innocents. Imagine if the population of any given country could just "vote" someone in to prison. What might you think would happen? Likely gangs would form to vie for having the most votes so they could control everything. Video games are no exception. Guilds will form and abuse the shit out of new players. Not for no reason but rather for not a good reason. Things like "you didnt bring in enough mats", "You didn't farm stones for me", "You didn't tell me how great I am today". It will get wildly out of hand, players will quit, and the game will die out just like so many others before it. No one wants to be held hostage or forced to restart on another server. What it really boils down to is you would rather jail an innocent than potentially have to deal with a criminal."
"Anyone can turn on an anti afk program to elder themselves then start abusing the hell out of people with just a couple friends."
Once again, play time is not the metric by which someone becomes elder. I've talked with a number of people who were elders though... not a single one of them thus far whom I would've been particularly concerned about outcasting people without good cause.
"Again through testing on my server from what information we are able to gather there seems to be a system more based on time than rep. It's possible its just coincidence but I would like to see an official statement saying its rep and only rep.