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Rend Early Access Patch 1: Patch Notes

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Comments

  • This outcast system is going to be abused more then likely.
  • Smaller issue than what is being discussed, perhaps, but Iron Shards are still not craftable. It's still saying missing resources when you have the iron ore in the table or on your person, thought maybe it was saying it was ore when it should say bars, but tried that and it still doesn't work.

    Cheers.
  • Faction elders may initiate a two-minute interface popup vote to label a faction member as an outcast. If a majority is achieved (60% of online faction members), the faction member becomes an outcast

    Who decided this? This is going to cause heaps of problems... Like what? See below:
    Scruffy wrote: »
    This could be a major problem. Elders are not chosen by being the best leaders the players decide on, it's based solely on faction points? Time spent in the game. As often as not, the elders are NOT good leaders, builders, or designers, they just spend more time in game grinding. Elders can now outcast people based solely on personality clashes, being a control freak or simply power-tripping/bullying. And there's nothing a player can do about it. The system is a good idea but poorly implemented and will cause more problems. If Elders are now able to kick players, there needs to be the facility for players to kick Elders or otherwise overcome bad elders. In one game, I clashed with an Elder, most players on agreed with me, but there's nothing we could do, the Elder had the perms to do whatever. I decided that it wasn't worth continuing to play in that faction and log out to delete my char and join another faction. Unfortunately, the game said I'd played too many hours, and could not delete char. I was forced to stay in the poorly led faction or find another server entirely. I would dearly have loved to change factions, just for the opportunity to deliver justice to another player.

    Let me give another example: Thor's Fury. The Order faction has 1 guild TEA who has taken over pretty much the whole faction, with 15 players on all the time, the mayority are elders, or higher ranking officers in the faction. They spend 8hrs+ playing... those that not conform to TEA's way of doing things are either shot, or deprived from the resources that we as a faction have accrued. So what this system is going to do, is give some Chinese dude (because they all use chinese characters on their names you can't figure out who is who) the power to pretty much ruin everybody's game who is not aligned to play _their game_. So instead of the outcast system help get rid of players like them, its going to cause players like them to abuse it over players like us who want to play the game and have fun.

    I hope you revise how this is going to work, because I have the feeling that when I log on tonight, it I will be already outcasted...
  • Are we just not gonna talk about the horrendous crosshair icons when mousing over anything?
  • Darinth wrote: »
    That 2 v 1 is actually one of the worst-case scenarios that concerns me. A bad elder and one other player can do a lot of damage with outcasting people. Once again, however, this is a fixable situation. Having faction players be able to add their vote as they log on means that once another person or 2 logs in, they'll get their votes counted and overturn an outcasting. Stop looking at the worst-case scenario and acting like this is a reason to throw the entire system out, and start looking for ways to resolve the issues.

    I agree with some of the concerns, but think that in 99% of cases it's fixable without FK even needing to directly interfere, and that metrics and/or GM review can mitigate issues as they pop up.

    If you think this will be used properly 99% of the time you are misguided at best. Just take a look at games that put harsh systems that have wildly outrageous potential for abuse like this in place, and how insanely fast they failed afterwards. A very recent example being sea of thieves. Which you could rename to be far more accurate to "Brig simulator 2.0". This needed a majority vote as well at an even higher percent. And I can tell you from personal experience I would have to join a solid 10 games minimum before I found one that wasn't full of trolls throwing you in the brig instantly then dancing around the cell trying to puke on you or intentionally sink the ship since you were stuck in the brig and would drown. Games pretty dead now because of an extremely similar system to the one proposed here. You grossly underestimate the amount of power hungry a55 hats on the internet. This WILL be abused. This WILL kill the game. I myself will stop playing the instant this is implemented to save myself the grief of dealing with power hungry douchbagery and call my CC to have the charge reversed. You don't sell a person a game then immediately make a way to prevent them from playing it. I would much rather have to deal with the occasional troll trying to ruin the game because they're easily handled by killing them till they leave at the cost of just a few rep points which is a small price to pay to deal with these idiots.

  • @Awful Citizen Why would you want to play on a faction with those guys anyways. The other factions on the server aren't a good option either, since I don't want to get destroyed by a full faction of people who treat the game as their day job. Outcast or not, I'd just join a different server entirely.

    Looking at it in a not-so-nice, but realistic way: "Outcasts" already existed. There are plenty of players who didn't belong on the faction they joined, because they didn't fit how the rest of the faction wanted to play. (Whether the faction or the individual is at fault is irrelevant to my argument.) And they were likely to quit playing on that faction anyways, because of bullying, being banned by an admin, or just feeling out-of-the-loop. This system just speeds up the process of pushing "outcasts" out. Any "abuse" of the system (groups bullying individuals) would happen regardless.

    At least it helps deal with lone trolls to a degree. I'll take it just for that.
  • This will help stop all the minor trolling, stealing resources, destroying them, stuff like that. Yes it will introduce the ability for power hungry elders to ban people, but then it's easier to prove and thus easier for the devs to give out punishments. It's not a perfect fix, but it's one that will reduce their workload of dealing with hundreds of griefers a day to 5 ban-hungry elders, which is also easier to prove. Meaning the devs can then focus on bugs and other updates without an alert every 2min from a griefer.
  • This will help stop all the minor trolling, stealing resources, destroying them, stuff like that. Yes it will introduce the ability for power hungry elders to ban people, but then it's easier to prove and thus easier for the devs to give out punishments. It's not a perfect fix, but it's one that will reduce their workload of dealing with hundreds of griefers a day to 5 ban-hungry elders, which is also easier to prove. Meaning the devs can then focus on bugs and other updates without an alert every 2min from a griefer.

    Not a perfect fix? It's not a fix at all its a suicide move for killing their own game. Gonna predict now that this game is going to be dead even faster than Evolve once they implement this most stupid of moves. Gotta see past the fanboi goggles and in to the future. Look at what happens to other games that have similar systems that allow for a group of players to abuse another group in their same faction. They dont last. These types of things just kill games. Its been proven time and again.
  • JotaCeJotaCe ✭✭
    Outcast system MUST be taken very carefully, i mind, it's a good system to kick those toxic players who stole faction resurces or have bad behavior or don't help the faction. BUT, like all the multiplayer games, there are a lot of "people" (i call them people for not insult them and earn me a ban) who are so toxic and easily trolling us, they only need 2 or 3 more like them to vote and expulse "just for fun" some player that hasn't done anything bad, and we all know that this is true.

    Developers need to study those votes, if my faction kick me for nothing, i expect that developers assess my case and don't let those trolls, kick me without reason. They have to evaluate if I deserve to be expulsed, instead, give them a warning for wanting to kick me without reason.

    Sure, if i play in a server with that kind of "people", the better solution is get out of there and play in other server, but, it's a shame that good, nice and right players are the ones who have to get out of there and not the trolls.
  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    @xzonerhsr It's less fan boi and more defending the system we recommended. Also, a lot less 'THE WORLD IS ENDING!!' and a lot more 'Lets wait and see what happens so we can recommend changes to a system that we expect will have problem.'

    If it doesn't work, the system can be ripped out and another can be tried. But my goodness, it's barely a week into EA and they're experimenting with a new system to resolve an issue. I think the system can be made to work, you're just used to looking at terrible implementations that have no safeguards on them.
  • JotaCeJotaCe ✭✭
    @Darinth We are showing all the possible scenarios of that system, it is useful to keep our faction free of toxic people, but I do not want to wait until the cycle is near to finish, for example, 1000 spirits to win and find that I have been expulsed from the server , just because somebody vote for kick me.

    It's an excellent tool but, developers need to listen and see all posible scenarios.
  • What about you cap at 1 or 3 or 5 or 7 Elders depending on the activity of faction (server/faction population, alternative #1), and as clan you can once in week or after every reckoning choose how many Elders you want to have in the Faction (alternative #2 or mix both #1 and #2). Lets say This time we have 3 Elders, then we need 2 of 3 Elders to get the outcast voting "ON" then you need 60% to get somebody outcasted. With voting after every reckoning how many Elders there should be, well this will let you have max 1 elder if theres only 4 ppl online everyday, less abuse for smaller teams, we dont want 5 elders when only 5 players online daily cuz they "voted" for that. If we have 20ppl, then theres 7 elders and you need majority to start outcast vote. This will not stop the abuse, dont think anything would right now, but will lower it.

    I apologize for bad grammar! Hope you get the Idea atleast :)
  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    @JotaCe My apologies, you were not someone my post was at all directed at. It was directed at the people who're like "OMG!! IF THIS BULLSHIT MAKES IT INTO THE GAME I'M GETTING A REFUND! THE ONLY THING A SYSTEM VAGUELY RESEMBLING THIS ONE COULD EVER DO IS DESTROY ANY GAME IT'S A PART OF!!!!!!"

    Showing concern over the system is good and recommended. I suspect that's part of the reason FK posted it up early, was to see good criticism and potentially get views on other people's concerns about where it might fail along with possible solutions.
  • JotaCeJotaCe ✭✭
    @Darinth don't worry, i know there are some guys complaining about everything ;)
  • A few 2 cents (thoughts):

    This is a game where we "win" so the very nature of having "winning" as a goal means that there is huge pressure on having everyone work work work as much as possible towards winning.

    So...

    CASUAL GAMERS

    In this game where the goal is to win, I can see that casual gamers who join could be liabilities to the goal of "winning" in spite of them having no intention of causing a problem. If you have someone collecting 500 spirit a day and another person collecting none (but having loads of fun playing) it only makes sense for Elders to boot the guy having fun playing but not "contributing" to the end goal of winning by collecting spirit (or helping out as much as another person might be doing).

    I feel this already, I have a nagging feeling of uselessness/non-contribution whenever I am just out having fun (like taming a pet for fun, or exploring more for fun than to specifically collect something).

    It is GREAT that by just doing things we earn sparks to help upgrade things and in that way even a casual gamer is contributing somewhat, but it does make a conundrum that we feel constant pressure to be pushing towards the win vs. just cruising around having fun.

    Same goes for PvP folks who might like doing PvP instead of running after spirits at night. Is that contributing to winning? Hmmm...

    It seems that the end-game of winning has huge unintended consequences on how it makes folks spend their time in game.

    p.s. Same goes for building a personal base vs. using the main base. Is that contributing to winning? Is it best to never spend time and resources on personal bases at all because all that time and resource work could go directly to the "win"?

    I am intrigued by the idea of a "win" type of game as Rend is now - it is so totally different from other games - but it sure does make trouble for players who have limited time or want to just enjoy playing in a way that may not be the most "efficient" path to "win"...
  • xzonerhsrxzonerhsr
    edited August 9
    Darinth wrote: »
    @xzonerhsr It's less fan boi and more defending the system we recommended. Also, a lot less 'THE WORLD IS ENDING!!' and a lot more 'Lets wait and see what happens so we can recommend changes to a system that we expect will have problem.'

    If it doesn't work, the system can be ripped out and another can be tried. But my goodness, it's barely a week into EA and they're experimenting with a new system to resolve an issue. I think the system can be made to work, you're just used to looking at terrible implementations that have no safeguards on them.

    Because there are no safeguards on it. Its a free for all implementation of an incredibly easily abused mechanic with an extreme detriment to the person being abused. If you support this its likely because your part of a guild and want to be able to bully everyone on your server in to doing what you want. If you cant see how terrible of an idea this is you suffer from an inability to see where things lead. Elder just mean guy that has a lot of time played. And typically those people are the ones looking to act like internet tough guys and are far more likely to abuse a system like this. There needs to be safeguards in place. What if an elder simply doesn't like another elder does he simply bide his time till he has more friends on than the other one and outcast him? Its pure crap that wasn't though out at all. No one needs to wait and see the abuse thats just failure to understand basic ideas. I dont need to wait and see if a caged lion will attack a caged zebra because i have the foresight to know its gonna happen. Anyone can turn on an anti afk program to elder themselves then start abusing the hell out of people with just a couple friends.
  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    @xzonerhsr
    "Because there are no safeguards on it. Its a free for all implementation of an incredibly easily abused mechanic with an extreme detriment to the person being abused."
    We... don't actually have full system details. We have a little blurb that Scapes posted about what the system does, but my base instinct is that this isn't all of the details. Even if that is how the system starts out...

    "If you support this its likely because your part of a guild and want to be able to bully everyone on your server in to doing what you want."
    Nope. No guild. I have some friends and will probably hop between servers a little bit, but certainly not enough to have any kind of controlling interest.

    "If you cant see how terrible of an idea this is you suffer from an inability to see where things lead."
    No, I have a disagreement on where things lead.

    "Elder just mean guy that has a lot of time played."
    This is just factually incorrect. Achieving elder status requires being one of the top 3 in the faction as far as rep. While having lots of time to play does help you farm up more rep, they're not the same thing. Elder does mean 'guy who has put in a lot of work'. Still doesn't necessarily mean they're a good leader, but it's certainly more than just most time played.

    "And typically those people are the ones looking to act like internet tough guys and are far more likely to abuse a system like this."
    Now you're performing massive generalizations. Literally demonizing a group of people based on the fact they spend a lot of time playing Rend and getting Rep. I promise you there will be bad and corrupt Elders, but most of the people I've known who are elders are decent people.

    "There needs to be safeguards in place."
    Probably, but I'm still of the opinion that even without those safeguards in place the outcast system will be an improvement on the situation. The safeguards will be further improvement though.

    "What if an elder simply doesn't like another elder does he simply bide his time till he has more friends on than the other one and outcast him?"
    That'll be a problem. And this is an example of a situation where a safeguard will be necessary. I still feel you're taking worst-case scenarios and making the de-facto reality.

    "Its pure crap that wasn't though out at all."
    Unlikely. It was a regular topic on the discord for a while, and there was a good bit of dissent on the best solution. Unfortunately, nobody was able to put out a better idea. I think this is the best option. It probably will need some safeguards. Some of those may already be in place when the system launches friday, we'll have to wait to see.

    "No one needs to wait and see the abuse thats just failure to understand basic ideas. I dont need to wait and see if a caged lion will attack a caged zebra because i have the foresight to know its gonna happen."
    Once again... you have a problem with overly wide generalizations. I expect there will be some issues, but most servers I expect will see improvement when factions have a method of removing problem players.

    "Anyone can turn on an anti afk program to elder themselves then start abusing the hell out of people with just a couple friends."
    Once again, play time is not the metric by which someone becomes elder. I've talked with a number of people who were elders though... not a single one of them thus far whom I would've been particularly concerned about outcasting people without good cause.
  • FutschiFutschi ✭✭
    Yep, I've been elder on Ravager EU Conclave occasionally. You get there mostly by collecting spirits (5 Reputation per spirit is imho the fastest way of grinding faction standing). Other ways are building the faction base (0.4 per Crumblestone Brick or Cement spent, don't know about other resources) and researching things (0.4 per spark spent). You lose faction standing by shooting faction members. Apparently the top 3 contributors by that metric have the elder rank.

    I don't think one of the elders we had there would have outcast anyone who didn't blatantly harass faction members (like intentionally killing members or pets, not out of a misunderstanding) or ruined the faction in some other way (taking resources from the storage and jumping with them off the edge of the world for example).

    My standpoint is, if an elder and 60% of the faction are against you either you did something worth being outcast over or you probably wouldn't want to play with that faction anyway, no matter what system was in place.
    I think a lot of people underestimate the power of communication. Use your faction chat before you do something that might be disliked. Just communicate what you'll do. If you take a lot of a resource that doesn't seem to be available in abundance, ask in faction chat before you do it. (Nobody cares if you take 500 light leather when there's 2000 stored in boxes but if you take all 65 available black feathers you should maybe ask beforehand if someone else needs some too.) Same goes for building bases, if it's building something in the faction base or if it's something outside.
  • Darinth wrote: »
    @xzonerhsr
    "Because there are no safeguards on it. Its a free for all implementation of an incredibly easily abused mechanic with an extreme detriment to the person being abused."
    We... don't actually have full system details. We have a little blurb that Scapes posted about what the system does, but my base instinct is that this isn't all of the details. Even if that is how the system starts out...
    "We have their current clear intention so yes we have the details."

    "If you support this its likely because your part of a guild and want to be able to bully everyone on your server in to doing what you want."
    Nope. No guild. I have some friends and will probably hop between servers a little bit, but certainly not enough to have any kind of controlling interest.
    "Yep this is already happening without the system even in place yet just less efficiently because its harder to do"

    "If you cant see how terrible of an idea this is you suffer from an inability to see where things lead."
    No, I have a disagreement on where things lead.
    "Yes you simply dont have foresight and are ignoring all the other platforms that have done this and killed their player base simply because you would like to pretend it couldnt happen here it would seem"

    "Elder just mean guy that has a lot of time played."
    This is just factually incorrect. Achieving elder status requires being one of the top 3 in the faction as far as rep. While having lots of time to play does help you farm up more rep, they're not the same thing. Elder does mean 'guy who has put in a lot of work'. Still doesn't necessarily mean they're a good leader, but it's certainly more than just most time played.
    "So long ask your not anti afking generally the person with the most time played is going to have the most rep unless theyre just "doing it wrong". And as far as I've tested on my server it seems to be based on time spent in game as there is one elder that just doesnt do much rep farming but is in the game all the time (fairly certain with an anti afk program as he does not move for long periods of time). I have a hard time believing its based ONLY on rep from what I've seen. Though it would be better if it is based completely on rep rather than time."

    "And typically those people are the ones looking to act like internet tough guys and are far more likely to abuse a system like this."
    Now you're performing massive generalizations. Literally demonizing a group of people based on the fact they spend a lot of time playing Rend and getting Rep. I promise you there will be bad and corrupt Elders, but most of the people I've known who are elders are decent people.
    "anecdotal. My experience has been the opposite. Just like stereotypes are not true for all of a group they are true for a majority which is why its a stereotype to begin with."

    "There needs to be safeguards in place."
    Probably, but I'm still of the opinion that even without those safeguards in place the outcast system will be an improvement on the situation. The safeguards will be further improvement though.
    "Being ok without having safeguards in place is the equivalent of setting a hydrogen bomb off in your back yard because you think maybe possibly kinda sorta a little bit that itll just be a fire cracker equivalent."

    "What if an elder simply doesn't like another elder does he simply bide his time till he has more friends on than the other one and outcast him?"
    That'll be a problem. And this is an example of a situation where a safeguard will be necessary. I still feel you're taking worst-case scenarios and making the de-facto reality.
    "I am using real life experience from past games that have used similar systems to give morons power over others they do not deserve or are qualified to use. Your inability to understand that this has been done before time and again and failed every time is whats blocking your ability to reason here I think. We need to look at worst case scenarios. This is how you prevent bad crap from happening before it happens."

    "Its pure crap that wasn't though out at all."
    Unlikely. It was a regular topic on the discord for a while, and there was a good bit of dissent on the best solution. Unfortunately, nobody was able to put out a better idea. I think this is the best option. It probably will need some safeguards. Some of those may already be in place when the system launches friday, we'll have to wait to see.
    "If it was thought out it wouldnt be open to such blatant obvious abuse. Thats not thought out thats placating. And honestly I hope thats all it is and they never release their self destruct system"

    "No one needs to wait and see the abuse thats just failure to understand basic ideas. I dont need to wait and see if a caged lion will attack a caged zebra because i have the foresight to know its gonna happen."
    Once again... you have a problem with overly wide generalizations. I expect there will be some issues, but most servers I expect will see improvement when factions have a method of removing problem players.
    "The issues are already clear as day. You dont implement a system of punishment when its going to impact innocents. Imagine if the population of any given country could just "vote" someone in to prison. What might you think would happen? Likely gangs would form to vie for having the most votes so they could control everything. Video games are no exception. Guilds will form and abuse the shit out of new players. Not for no reason but rather for not a good reason. Things like "you didnt bring in enough mats", "You didn't farm stones for me", "You didn't tell me how great I am today". It will get wildly out of hand, players will quit, and the game will die out just like so many others before it. No one wants to be held hostage or forced to restart on another server. What it really boils down to is you would rather jail an innocent than potentially have to deal with a criminal."

    "Anyone can turn on an anti afk program to elder themselves then start abusing the hell out of people with just a couple friends."
    Once again, play time is not the metric by which someone becomes elder. I've talked with a number of people who were elders though... not a single one of them thus far whom I would've been particularly concerned about outcasting people without good cause.
    "Again through testing on my server from what information we are able to gather there seems to be a system more based on time than rep. It's possible its just coincidence but I would like to see an official statement saying its rep and only rep.

  • Our server NA-West Muspelheim got brought to our knees and people quitted the game. Myself included.
    We had players joining our faction enter the game naked take as many resources they could and run out of the base. Drop them somewhere and being transferred to players of other factions. We lost a bit less than 20k reputation everytime we killed one of them and this new system gives them the chance to do that by gaining 10k reputation back.
    With all due respect i want a refund. And i will hold myself from flaming the game. This could have being SO EASY to spot.
    If not well yeah negative reviews about the game its gonna be posted every time and everywhere i have the chance and i will make sure i tell everyone i know about it.
    And please save any comments mentioning its EA. A 10 year old could have figured out how to exploit this system and this is not a joke since my son told me about it from day 1, we all knew it was going to happen and the patch allows them to do the same thing after getting 10k reputation ? Make it a permanent account ban and we will be talking if 66% of the server population with more than 9 players online think you should be banned, definitely you should be banned. At least until the next server clean sweep after the factions won or lose.
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