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Do you want a faction warehouse?

24

Comments

  • LayKnyLayKny
    edited July 2018
    No
    This guy...

    "I'm not happy with the result of a vote, so i tell everyone to change their vote".

    Game killer, democracy killer, respect killer.
  • No
    I also Voted for No because I think it makes the whole Faction organizing thing to easy. I would love to see the option to set a filter on each Chest which things could go in which not and also right permissions. who could take stuff how much and so on. So you have a flexible system which forces your whole faction to accept the system cause of the filters you could put on each chest.
  • Yes
    LayKny said:
    No, i will not consider changing my vote because you say that.

    Don't care about your 900+ hours, not my fault if your teamates are dumb.

    [...]
    Pls @LayKny, try to be objective.
    An opinion should be based on fact, argumentation should have a background of facts. No trolls and no offense pls.
    You voted and you said your opinion, now give us non-subjective Arguments only for that.
    Of course that is also the case for you, @[WADR]MagenZion .
    But yes, back to argumentation.

    LayKny said:
    It's the game, deal with it.
    I totally do not agree with that. We are in Pre-Alpha testing that means the developers want us to test the game, look for bugs, search for loop holes, try out balancing and ingame features and say our opinion. That is why we got the key. It is not about "Hey play for free and deal with the features right now!". We are not supposed to deal with it! It is on us changing the game to the way we want it.
    LayKny said:
    No.
    Is there crates you can craft.
    This game requiere organization between faction members.
    LayKny said:
    This is the game : a race to victory.
    And winners will be the most organised faction.
    Of course this game is a race to victory. And of course a main part of victory is always organization. But on the other hand we do not have the possibilities to force organization right now. If somebody is griefing/stealing in real life, he goes to jail. Ingame we do not have that possibilities right now. A running system is based on rules. Rules are made from the majority of members in a system. A disciplinary structures prevent people in a system from getting out of order. We cannot kill faction members for good right now, we cannot ban them from main base or storage or lock them up in jail. That means there is no disciplinary structure atm. No disciplinary structure means no possibility to enforce rules and therefor no possibility of organization.
    (If you play with friends, that is of course another topic. Friends have social bindings in Real Life. Griefing will get them disadvantages in Real Life (Disciplinary Structure))

    That is why we have the problems right now. The game is said to be sandboxy. The problem of all sandbox games is, that they are never sandboxy enough. Every game has its limitations. It is still a simulation, a model. Every model has its limitations. With regard to organisation, the above mentioned limitations prevent the strict enforcement of organisation. This leads to two non-trivial methods of solving the problem:
    -lift the limitation (increase of freedom): That means allow people to ban other people from base or to kill them permanently or to lock them up (disciplinary structure)
    -cover the limitations (decrease of personal freedom): Restrict access to personal or faction storage through ingame UI or give other possibilities to organize the faction (like job tags, group policy/rights, elder options,...) (Organization tools)
    YOU'RE the nonsense to want "easy game" or "personnal game". It's a multiplayer game.
    And yes, that has nothing to do with easy game. But that is modeling architecture limitations and how to cope them.
    And yes, I agree in one thing with your argumentation. It is indeed a multiplayer game.
  • XenoXeno ✭✭
    Yes
    LayKny wrote: »
    This guy...

    "I'm not happy with the result of a vote, so i tell everyone to change their vote".

    Game killer, democracy killer, respect killer.

    love how you say "he is not happy with the result of the vote" when most are for the warehouse.
    I just read through the entire threat and noticed that even thou only a very small number are against the warehouse, they are very loud.

    Magen explained with reason why the warehouse was needed yet you didnt even counter his argument, you just belive otherwise. I doubt you have every played a game with even 5 people and tryed to orginize the storage of these people.

    Also there is a difference between a challenging game and a tedious game.
    Forcing people to do storage by hand makes the game more tedious not more challenging.
  • [WADR]MagenZion[WADR]MagenZion ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Yes
    Okay, not even addressing LayKny anymore. Clearly a hysterical and immature individual. I at no point was trying to break down "democracy". I politely asked you to reconsider your vote as you clearly ignored all prior discussion about it in this thread.

    @crOgiB I think you're confusing the ideas of challenging gameplay and tedium. Tedium is not a challenge it's just an annoyance that you have to get past. Things like tools breaking (which the devs removed between pre-alpha and alpha) are tedium rather than challenging gameplay. Sure, in some cases it's needed to try and tweak the length of the game. But it should be used as sparingly as possible.

    Thus far, it seems like the handful of people against the warehouse lack the experience of either organizing a base in any survival game or at least in Rend where you're trying to organize a base for way more people than in most other survival games. That or you're simply being contrarian which isn't really a valid argument at all. More to the former, even in ARK when you are playing with a handful of friends (let's say 5 for the sake of argument) you always have that friend that drops loot/gear/etc. off in whatever box in base. In Rend, the same problem is magnified in a big way. Just as in ARK, when I was playing Rend in pre alpha with a small amount of people of whom I knew all of them well and we were all on the same page (as I wrote earlier) you STILL have people that care little for putting resources/loot/etc. into the right boxes and storage becomes a disaster within hours. This is mostly because people's brains work differently, they have a hard time internalizing the base layout and where all the boxes are and throw stuff wherever they first find a box.

    Specifically to crOgiB's idea about locking boxes so they can only have certain items in them: a) that's actually a lot more complex if you factor in trying to make boxes that only take animal parts (the devs would have to go through and make code for boxes that recognize every single animal part and there are a ton of them) and b) is the same thing but reversed. You don't want it to be too easy for people that like base organized and you're suggesting making it a lot harder for people that don't care about where they set down their loot because they'll have to wander around base finding the right box to put stuff in.

    So, to people like crOgiB and @Leonerdo I ask, do you want an organized base, or do you want to either fight with friends/faction-mates over putting things in the right boxes because people's brains work differently?
  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    Yes
    Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's a way to change your vote regardless of situation, so we can dispense of that idea. Doesn't mean we can't have a valid discussion about it, but lets just start off recognizing that this is a discussion and once someone's vote is cast they can't change it regardless.

    In the end, I think Magen's logic is sound. I played Ark with a small number of people. Anything more than a few people, and storage begins to break down. Someone will always just not follow the organization. Maybe they tried, but just couldn't find the right box. Maybe they were in a hurry and figured that someone would fix it later for them. Maybe... they just like chaos and think it's funny to make other people run around and clean up after them. No matter how you look at it, even coordinating a team of 5 friends is difficult. Coordinating a team of 20+ people who barely know each other is a simple impossibility. The closest you might get is on large groups of people, someone will eventually almost always end up "base bitch" and have to hourly go and retrieve and resort the base. That's not an enjoyable experience, there's a reason for the derogatory term.

    As I said, I'm not necessary a big fan in principle of just having one giant warehouse building... it just feels... off? But the current system is completely defunct. If it looks like it's working to you, you're likely one of the people who isn't actually communicating with your faction well and are blissfully unaware of the constant bitching because people can't be bothered and will stick stacks of cragstone bricks in the clearly labeled twine container.
  • Yes
    I think it should be a structure where you can add chests - Make the structure, and it has 8 slots for chests on shelves. Place one chest in, and you get one chests worth of storage, More you place = more storage. Simple. With combining the chests together and adding a search feature, it would be great for storing base materials while still leaving a purpose for the rep locked chests, armouries, etc
  • Yes
    To the people who disagree - Most of us just want this as a way to help organise our faction better. If you think this is too OP, then why not suggest a nerf to it instead? Such as having a high resource cost to upgrade it's storage, or making it so it can only store raw mats. I don't really see another reason to deny it - No one is saying remove all other forms of storage so you can't i guess live your dream of cleaning an entire factions drop box. Instead of straight up denying the idea, Compromise.
  • edited July 2018
    Yes
    There is no way to organize the loot in a faction unless you can reach every person of that faction. You'd need to tell all the 20 people that are online how things work, and for each person logging out and next guy logging in. It's not humanly possible. It's not even safe to say that every person on this faction is here to win and would follow those man made rules.

    We need limitations and rules enforced by the game or there will either forever be chaos or the main base won't ever be used (people will only make personal bases) which then would be what's ruining a big part of what Rend is. To prevent the faction team play from withering and turning in to clan divided gameplay (like most survival games are) with personal bases located here and there we'll need this.

    One big warehouse that you can't withdraw mats from would be a good start of a solution. It's not fail safe, people can just rep up and craft using all mats and trash the crafted items. But it would definitely make it better. What else would be needed to prevent one troll from ruining the game for a whole faction might belong in a different thread.

    After having played alpha, the only plans I've made in my head for EA release on steam is personal base based. I have 2 friends and we'd craft everything we need ourselves and for ourselves only. We had zero plans of doing anything for the faction main base and the trolls just trashing or stealing mats for their personal bases is the only reason for that.
  • LayKnyLayKny
    edited July 2018
    No
    "LayKny is immature / hysteric"

    By the guy who harass you to change your mind / your vote because he's not happy.
    By the guy who think he can tell you something as orders.
    By the guy who don't respect others ideas or person, and insult when we tell him "no".
    By the guy who wants to change the game litterally.

    Very funny. Continue please.
  • OldGuardOldGuard
    edited July 2018
    Yes
    Hm, for me now it is just the same arguments over and over again. I dont know why we even have to discuss it that much anymore. Read the whole thread, everything is said there. Everything from now on is only more examples. If you have more arguments, bring it. Only clearly differ between examples, meanings, opinion and arguments.
  • No
    "now give us non-subjective Arguments only for that"

    Everyone is subjective.

    We're here to talk about our impressions and feelings.
    Is there no objective arguments here.
    For me, it's not a problem. Objective, subjective, it's the same : all are arguments.
    And i respect others arguments and feelings.

    ---

    "It is on us changing the game to the way we want it."

    AAAAARG !!!
    Freedom killer !
    Dude, it's not YOUR game, it's the gamedev's game.
    You can propose ideas, sure.
    But no, we're not here to do "MAKE THE GAME I WANT !", they're not our slaves.
    We play a game with his rules and objectives. Please respect that.

    ---

    And... If it's the deal...

    I want a game who is difficult to organize players in a faction.
    Yes, i want "difficulty".

    Look the OP idea : make a warehouse, so kill the interest of chests.
    Make possible to use all ressources whenhever you are in the base.
    ...
    ...
    Well, no, i don't want it.
    No nned more argument : OP starts a vote, i voted no. Respect my vote please, stop insult.

    And yes, it's subjective. So ? What the point ? I don't want an easy game.

    ---

    So now "OldGuard", what are your "objective arguments" ?

    "And of course a main part of victory is always organization. But on the other hand we do not have the possibilities to force organization right now."

    Well...
    You want to... "FORCE" ???
    Hey ! Who are you to force people doing what you want ?
    Do you know what "liberty" is ?

    ---

    If you understand that "organization is a main part of victory", so DON'T force people not to have this difficulty to win.

    Or go play an other game ^^.
  • No
    "After having played alpha, the only plans I've made in my head for EA release on steam is personal base based. I have 2 friends and we'd craft everything we need ourselves and for ourselves only."

    So don't play Rend, a faction based game. You're playing the wrong game.
    Go play Rust or ARK.

    Dude, it's your right to want not playing with other people, but don't change Rend spirit just for you wish.
    Go play another game. Seriously, don't ruin the base game just for that.
  • No
    So, you want an "objective argument" ?
    Ok.

    "This idea goes against the spirit of Rend."

    End.

    Next idea !
  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    Yes
    LayKny wrote: »
    By the guy who wants to change the game litterally.

    You... you do realize that the entire point of the feedback forum is to give feedback so the game can change... right? Dude, I know you don't like the warehouse concept. Cool, I get it. I think you're taking things a bit to personally and offensively. Magen never even gave you an order to change your vote. He literally said "Please consider changing your vote if you can." a request to consider doing something.
  • OldGuardOldGuard
    edited July 2018
    Yes
    @LayKny:
    I already gave you quiet a lot of objective arguments. I also quoted you quiet much, so that I had an argument which stands against each point you made and nullified them quiet clearly.
    I based everything on the fundamental basics of simulation and modeling and also general social structure and made the relation to the problem clear, spoke about the natural limitations of rend as a pc game with regard to the real world and how to generally solve them.

    LayKny said:
    "This idea goes against the spirit of Rend."
    This is not an argument, but a thesis, you have to prove to be right first. That means making clear several points:
    -What is the spirit of Rend?
    -Is that your personal opinion or fact.
    -If it is fact, prove that it is fact by reliable quotes.
    -Where are the boundaries of the definition of the spirit of rend?
    -what makes this idea going against it based on the definition?

    That is how argumentation works.
  • Yes
    crOgiB wrote: »
    I also Voted for No because I think it makes the whole Faction organizing thing to easy. I would love to see the option to set a filter on each Chest which things could go in which not and also right permissions. who could take stuff how much and so on. So you have a flexible system which forces your whole faction to accept the system cause of the filters you could put on each chest.

    ....So you want a warehouse.

    In all honesty though, i just want to have less boxes clogging up space in the faction base. I might sound silly, but as the devs add more cosmetic items into the game, i would like to actually be able to put them somewhere without worry about taking up precious storage space. If an upgrade-able building is the answer then i am all for it.
  • edited July 2018
    Yes
    LayKny wrote: »
    "After having played alpha, the only plans I've made in my head for EA release on steam is personal base based. I have 2 friends and we'd craft everything we need ourselves and for ourselves only."

    So don't play Rend, a faction based game. You're playing the wrong game.
    Go play Rust or ARK.

    Dude, it's your right to want not playing with other people, but don't change Rend spirit just for you wish.
    Go play another game. Seriously, don't ruin the base game just for that.

    Due to liking a lot of other things in this game I won't play another game instead. Short and simple, my reasons for wanting a warehouse is what will save faction teamplay. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one. I know from in-game chats that one big clan on my server is going to do the exact same thing. Not having a warehouse will affect the game negatively IF it's so much about faction teamplay. The guy in the chat litterally said that because of the mess and resource/item grabbers all the old players of the server, which I believe are in a clan, would ignore main base and start their own clan base and use that one only.
  • LeonerdoLeonerdo ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    No
    @Leonerdo Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Yeah okay, if you're just going to laugh at people for sharing their honest opinions, then I'm done reading anything you have to say. I hope I never have to cooperate with you in a faction, cause that seems like a pretty tall order.

  • OldGuardOldGuard
    edited July 2018
    Yes
    And yes, I said force.
    But it is not me, who wants to force other people. I want the Faction Majority to be able to force individual player to follow a rule, not forcing him to do sth., but forcing him to not to do sth. That means e.g. a player does not have to put his materials into a specific storage, but he is not allowed to put it into another storage either, because that is the rule. That is generally how social laws are built up.
    I do not know how you imagine a normal society to be, but in a normal society to me, your personal freedom ends there, where you limit other personal freedoms, that is also a basic guideline in normal law. So, yes liberty, but only as much as to not endanger the liberty of other people. Elsewise there is no way to make that a general rule.
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