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This game's pvp is very flawed

SaltychipmunkSaltychipmunk ✭✭✭
edited October 2018 in Game Feedback
Honestly this will probably be my last post here as I plan to get most of my thoughts out.

Rend is a game that had potential, A premise that was genuinely novel, a world that was interesting and a system that promised depth and nuance.

However, Over the course of the 400 hours I have invested in the game .. the more aspects of it I see just .. do not work.

Pvp in this game ... is fundamentally broken on every level it can be. It is broken at the class level, it is broken at the combat level, it is broken at the map level , it is broken at the motivation level , it is broke at the resource investment level.

Class: If I were to sum up pvp in rend in one sentence it would be.. "Assassin class ruined rend" Now i am sure there are ways to re-balance the class known as assassin so that it works in this game but the class has so many mechanics in play that ruin pvp that a full refactor is needed.

1 Weapon range as a stat is bullshit. engagement distance is a fundamental concept to fair combat. Wars have been won just because one side could hit the other when the other could not. You should not, cannot, must not have some arbitrary stat line that allows a dude with a bow to out range another with the same freaking bow by 70%. How do you expect those people without that range advantage to actually participate in sieges?

You know what half of my faction did during reckoning? Not a damn thing because the only people that could damage the assassins on the other team.. were our own god damn assassins with the same build engaging them at the same distance. the rest might as well have been watching youtube videos rather than playing rend. Some actually were.

That is what 70% of organized pvp was in rend for me. two blobs of players plinking away at eachother at range.. the team with more assassins did more damage and therefore won. EVERY TIME. I stopped showing up to outposts when i figured that out.

Remove weapon range.

2 Stealth is a broken mechanic. For one thing why is it given for free? I dont see pathfinders getting a free cleanse or shamans getting a free ticket to the spirit world at level 1? why can an assassin go freaking invisible for free? Where the heck is the opportunity cost?

Stealth is just a terrible idea in a map so massive. If someone really doesn't want to be found they can just go stealth in a tree or something.

Stealth also slows the combat down. Since literally everyone who plays pvp seriously has assassin now every single engagement is a cat and mouse game between whose perception can find the 2 - 5 - 10 - 20 invisible assassins waddling around the point. It is dull , it is boring.

Remove stealth or make it something you have to invest in for crying out loud.


3 What is the point of non assassin poisons? I cant really think of one. Assassins blight and mire are so unbelievably easy to get your grubby hands on that you will never ever EVER need to use those base poisons. Assassins mire should be a tier 3 blocked poison, assassins blight should be a tier 4 blocked poison. They have no business being accessible in early game where the dot alone is enough to take 75 - 80% of a persons hp bar.

Every time i look at the poison chest it is full of nothing but these two poisons. That is a massive problem.

4 As much as I like the freedom of class choice it ultimately comes at the cost of pvp. Here is the thing. If I pick a pve class . you know pathfinder shaman. I have zero real chance at killing someone who goes ass-lord. Now some are probably thinking "good a pve class should get murdered by a pvp class". What you are missing then is that as a pve build I have absolutely ZERO reason to ever humor the pvp players with pvp.

If we go by risk vs reward, which any normal person with a pulse should be doing, There is too much risk and pretty much no reward to pvp in this game as a pve player.

This means is of that already small pool of 20 people on a faction.. if even half of them are pve oriented... that means half of that faction has absolutely no motivation to do the pvp thing in rend.

I can't really remember the last time i seriously contested an objective.


Map: The map is too big. And stags are cancer. This game right now is not about fighting over resources .. its about sneaking around going at mach 10 with a 999 pet rating stag .. hitting all the bronze/ skyfall .. whatever nodes and then noping out before anyone sees you. It about running around this giant map on a 999 stag looking for some poor newb to gank killing them before you even render in and then mounting up to find another person. Either you have a fast mount and are a functioning member of rend or your dont and might as well stop playing. Seriously people if you lack a 700 - 900 + stag at your beck and call .. this game punishes you for your transgression.


Combat: Rend combat suffers from two very damning issues . A complete lack of useful visual information and combat that is entirely too lethal facilitated by tons and tons of unnecessary stacking damage buffs.

Visual information is the number 1 most important thing to get right in a competitive shooter. This is why all the classes in say tf2 have such wildly exotic body types. this is why uniforms exist. Ambiguity is a death sentence for reflex based game play. If I have to think about what person is in front of me and if they are friend or foe ... Then the game has already failed. And rend is a huge fail.

I still do not understand why we have these glowing symbols on our arms eyes and back only for every armor set in the game to cover them up.

Why do i have to wait for an ugly ass health bar to see if a dude is my faction or not?

Why do my pets still not have faction colors?

Why does rev share a projectile color with half the ranged mobs in the game?

This is basic stuff here and it is inconceivable that they are not in the game yet .

This is made even worse by how lethal the combat gets. I asked one guy who seemingly one shot me what he was doing. Turns out he was stacking multiple different damage buffs and multiple attack speed buffs to the point where he shot me 5 times with a weapon that did 80% of my hp in 1 hit before latency even allowed me to react.

Put it another way , he walked up to me and over-killed me 4ish times over with his opening salvo.

There are other examples of this kind of ridiculously burst damage. Repeaters with assassins mire in early game are just as bad . stacking 3 stacks and killing people often before they have time to even react.

There is no skill here .. at this point its basically about who shoots first.


Motivation: If you have read this far then congratulations you have had more enthusiasm in reading this monster of a post than any non pvp focused player in rend had for pvp in the history of early access.

to summarize, pvp players have a massive range advantage and massive damage advantage over non pvp players
If you dont have a stag you pretty much arent a functioning member of rend as far as pvp is concerned.
The map is massive so the only pvp you will really see are one sided ambush ganks.

And the cherry to top is all is the fact that you drop everything on death. The final nail in rend's pvp coffin is probably the most simple.

I value my 4th string shitty weapons and armor more than any outpost in this game. If i had to choose between my gear and an outpost 100% of the time I will go afk in faction base and let the more interested parties sort things out.

If everything else I have said was not enough to demotivate me from even being a meat shield / target for the assassins of this game to have their jollies with.. having the privilege of losing all of my shit to this heavily unfair system is more than enough.


This game needs to change on a fundamental level before it will become the thing it needs to be. And I am honestly now skeptical that it will happen. This will most likely be my last saga in 2018. Ill peak back in 2019 to see if anything has changed. For the sake of the concept I hope it does. I really do.

Best of luck .

Comments

  • DarinthDarinth ✭✭✭
    @Saltychipmunk It'll be sad to see you go, but I don't blame you. I've not played Rend for a number of weeks, I'm keeping an eye on it via the forums... but that's it. I muted discord some time ago and let the steam forums burn. I stick around here at least in part because I've often got hours at work where I've got nothing to do but can't actually play games. It's the nature of the job. As time is going on I've become less hopeful for Rend, but the information in the developer letter still seems to indicate they're going in the right direction.

    You've probably got the healthiest attitude about the situation. Leave it alone for several months and then come back to see what it looks like. Hopefully when you come take another look, the game will be in a better state.
  • @Saltychipmunk I haven't played for a few weeks now because of the dead servers and even when they start fresh and are dead within a few days, the time investment is not worth it. Everything you posted is fairly accurate and I can't disagree with any of it. The game needs to be significantly changed in many of the core features. The passionate loyalists will say the players, not the game, are the problem. I present to these people the population in the game as proof that they are mistaken. I also watch from the sidelines now and await some indication that the Developers can make the changes necessary to get the game back on track.
  • I also stopped playing for a few weeks now, but mainly cause my teammates also quit. And playing this game with random ppl and without discord is just a pain. You are right with everything and probably that will be my course of action also. Wait a few months. Then maybe come back.

    I can remember though, that with the potion of the strung bow and sniper bows you could also shoot 3 arrows before the first one even hit its target (that was before the sniper bow nerf/arrow drop change).

    That potion is also broken. I used it all the time and for any weapon. I guess its also a good counter to super fast stags/raptors if you catch them at close range with a spike launcher/repeater and instantly burst them down.
  • I am a very vocal (and vulgar) critic of this game. I just don't agree with most of OP's issues.

    Agreed that you are pretty much dead if someone gets the jump on you. A lot of games do this but this game is different that you literally have zero chance to counter.

    Disagree that assassin are OP. First they are only gankers. That's it. No different than rogues in Warcraft. Stealth is a joke because with the multitude ways of adding perception to this game no one can rely on stealth as a mechanic. I personally think they need to buff stealth.

    Poisons are broken, period. Too powerful early game and pretty much useless late. Once people start using Aegissilk there is no longer any reason to even use poison.

    Range is important because there are too many super OP close ranged weapons. You can't get close to anyone with stealth because perception is too easy to get so assassins need range.

    Classes are balanced out. Classes are meant to be specialized. This isn't a generic class system that basically makes everyone equal. I hated that about Wow. There are trade-offs for class picks. You become better in some areas of the game while disadvantaged at others. Learn to make the best of your class.



  • Also, get a stag. I personally use a very fast allidon but in this game literally anyone can get a fast mount. You just have to be dedicated to it. Sounds more like you don't want to put in any effort and just have stuff handed to you. In that case- Rend isn't the game for you.
  • There's a lot of valid criticisms here. I actually had a sizeable reply that basically emphasized most of what was said, but I figured it'd be beating a dead stag.
  • SaltychipmunkSaltychipmunk ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    DruidGamer wrote: »
    I am a very vocal (and vulgar) critic of this game. I just don't agree with most of OP's issues.
    Agreed that you are pretty much dead if someone gets the jump on you. A lot of games do this but this game is different that you literally have zero chance to counter.

    This is mostly caused by the assassin class and the stag.
    Disagree that assassin are OP. First they are only gankers. That's it. No different than rogues in Warcraft. Stealth is a joke because with the multitude ways of adding perception to this game no one can rely on stealth as a mechanic. I personally think they need to buff stealth.

    This is not wow, This is a game where you a locked into your build for weeks at a time , this is also a game where only 2 of the 4 classes are really any good in pvp . Assassin isnt just over powered it is pretty much the only class people pick now

    Range is important because there are too many super OP close ranged weapons. You can't get close to anyone with stealth because perception is too easy to get so assassins need range.

    Do you really even play assassin much? because the strategy for assassins right now is either harassing people at render distance or .. shadow stepping on to people and killing them instantly with blasters. Assassins dont need range. The basis of your argument is patently false.
    Classes are balanced out. Classes are meant to be specialized. This isn't a generic class system that basically makes everyone equal. I hated that about Wow. There are trade-offs for class picks. You become better in some areas of the game while disadvantaged at others. Learn to make the best of your class.

    And this is why the game is dead. Instead of realizing how fundamentally flawed the class system is in a game that expects EVERYONE to do everything you blame the people for picking the wrong class or using it wrong. I can't control what my other faction members choose. There is no real way to prevent lopsided team compositions and there is no way to recover from such a mistake unless you buy a second account or catch it before you lock your character in.

    Do you have any idea how awful it feels to have to farm as a pvp build with no pathfinder? Do you have any idea how pointless it is to pvp as anything other than ass-lord when your main competition is nothing but ass-lords?


    What you are basically saying is .. "if you arent a pvp build .. don't pvp ever, if you arent a pve build . dont pve ever".
    Which is why this game is bleeding players. because of this stupidly unbalanced class system the only people who want to pvp are the dedicated pvp players.

    I cant tell you how many times the people on rev on my current and very much last saga bitched at us because we would never pvp them. because we HAD NO PVP PLAYERS. They weren't having fun , we weren't having fun and it all turned to shit.

    fuck the class system
    Also, get a stag. I personally use a very fast allidon but in this game literally anyone can get a fast mount. You just have to be dedicated to it. Sounds more like you don't want to put in any effort and just have stuff handed to you. In that case- Rend isn't the game for you.

    Holy shit are you serious right now? Yeah no its totally not for me .. and apparently anyone because the game has a concurrent player count of less than 100.

    I have a 996 stag , I am one of those people running around mining skyfall and divinite for 10s of thousands of sparks .


    I wanted to keep this civil as my last post but the amount of ignorance coming from your two posts is painful to me.

  • The best pvp build right now is shaman/warlord. Stop complaining about assassins, it shows that you are just really bad at this game. Instead of making tge game easy for you, maybe you should just get better.

    If you go pve build, dont expect to win the game in pvp. Focus on winning via pve. Simple, like your mind
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